AUDIO Epi 8: The Shocking Truth About Health Literacy Nobody Tells You

This IPZO facto, Innovation: No Way But Forward Podcast FULL Episode 8 (Empowering Patients By Empowering Physicians) showcases the importance of having strong **health literacy** and how that impacts decision making in healthcare. Dr. Carlos Garcia, PhD, Founder and CEO of Health Quest Gaming shares a touching, personal origin story of how he came to understand first hand how health illiteracy can impede improved health outcomes.  Dr. Garcia gives us a behind the scenes look at his platform on how he took steps to "marry gaming with medicine" to increase health literacy - which empowers patients by empowering physicians - for better outcomes.  This episode is for everyone: patients, doctors, healthcare providers, strategists, health literacy experts, and more.  What you hear may help you be better prepared for a future discussion of your health or enabling you to serve as a caregiver or patient advocate.

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🎯 If you are interested in platform and being part of the Health Jams, reach out to Carlos, cgarcia@healthquestgaming.com 
For more information  https://www.healthquest-gaming.com for more information. 

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➡️ CONNECT WITH US
Dr. Carlos Garcia, Founder and CEO Heath Quest Gaming
cgarcia@healthquestgaming.com 
linkedin.com/in/carlos-j-garcia
https://www.healthquest-gaming.com

Dr. Nobody(TM) Podcast
https://www.linkedin.com/company/dr-nobody-podcast/
episode with Zina Manji 
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/zina-manji_innovation-regulatoryaffairs-podcast-activity-7169472019267330048-4OYn?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAS6H_8BjMTCEvM1BH3bE7KGA0wD8pWkY3Q

InnoPathwayZ (IPZ) https://www.linkedin.com/company/innopathwayz-llc/
Zina Manji, Founder & Principal, Regulatory Strategist, InnoPathwayZ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zina-manji/
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📚 RESOURCES: 
Reference for "9/10" 
Lopez, C., Kim, B. & Sacks, K. (2022). Health literacy in the United States: Enhancing assessments and reducing disparities. Milken Institute. Retrieved from
https://milkeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/Health_Literacy_United_States_Final_Report.pdf

Reference for 25% increase mortality associated with Low health literacy
Fan, Zy., Yang, Y. & Zhang, F. Association between health literacy and mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis. Arch Public Health 79, 119 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1186/s13690-021-00648-7

Reference for Cardiovascular risk and low health literacy
HR 1.32 for mortality in acute heart failure: Journal of the American Heart Association, Health Literacy and Mortality: A Cohort Study of Patients Hospitalized for Acute Heart Failure.   low health literacy is associated with an increased risk of death among patients after hospitalization for an acute cardiovascular event specifically acute heart failure. The hazard ratio (HR) of 1.32 means that, after adjusting for other variables, patients with low health literacy had a 32% higher risk of dying during follow-up compared to those with higher health literacy. Its sad but here it is. 

Because with healthcare Innovation, there is No Way But Forward!

Transcript

Think about in the United States 9 out of 10 people are health illiterate that means their outcomes are poor unfortunately lost both my parents to cancer and then worst of all which is obviously my parents became that stat is 25% increase in death he had colon cancer and he had struggled for many years kind of knew something was off she developed breast cancer this is where ignited for me the journey that she went through originated from the moment she was diagnosed educating patients on their health journey and then taking that information and making informed decisions on their health and unfortunately they didn't really speak English well she just kind of let the doctor take control of everything but am pro empowerment of patients I started creating a health quest so the website is healthquest-gaming.com I'm a gamer so I always knew I wanted to marry medicine and gaming birds and chronic diseases impact someone that my platform with my company is for doctors to empower them to empower patients understanding where that patient is in their journey do they understand what breast cancer means those questions weren't asked not efficient especially when you have chronic diseases and lifelong changes like that is when the patient time to digest and then produce information and the decision that they want that they think is best he revealed to the doctor exactly where the patient is in their journey that enhanced communication between the patient and the doctor giving the options to the patient to choose whatever works for them so map out our platform experience the patient and the doctor overlapping a cloud-based platform to give the accessibility to everyone we are replacing brochures that our system of brochures and paperwork people have shifted to gamification and the doctor prescribes a game as simple as playing them on the potty or playing them in the doctor's office while you're waiting it sends that data to the doctor the patient can see it as well doctor then gets a grid and sees okay here are the areas that Zina is struggling in and based her electronic health records here are the areas that are needing of support and here are the areas that she's good at AI to generate insights for the doctor now the doctor and patient meet they know exactly what those points were they have that conversation doctor talks to them and then the cares in hand, 


more communication with patients actually increases outcomes patients that are health illiterate that have heart conditions, if they come out of the hospital, they have a 30% increased chance of death platform is free for patients. 


It's the doctor side that we figure out how to pay for the patient. I that is like another pillar of ours never charge the patients, they should not be charged for this or move those barriers from the patient and the doctors. 


It all comes to play. We focus on chronic diseases right now. Do older people play games. And I said, Absolutely, they play games when you're kind of behavioral psychology is very effective for patient and there's better positive outcomes for the patient focus on diabetes as our launch. 


It's remarkable how much money goes into diabetes and the numbers just keep getting worse every year. And our games will make an impact. But then you think about the core morbidity. And this is for all the chronic disease. 


So we do have cancer have eczema GI, that's the power of our platform give insights to the doctor that they would otherwise never be able to see which we are, we're pioneering to physician a better physician. 


Well, hello. Welcome to the next episode of ipso facto. I am so thrilled today to have with me Dr. Carlos Garcia. Carlos is a really good friend of mine. We met years ago while working in R&D, and he is a founder of a new startup, which I think you'll really find really interesting to hear about his origin story and the whys and the purpose behind that. 


And so I'm really excited, Carlos, to have you on the stage here with me today. And if you could start up by letting the audience know a little bit about you and your origin story. Yeah, sure. Thank you, thanks for having me here. 


It has come full circle since I had you on my podcast many years ago, which was a lot of fun. But yeah, so Carlos Garcia. I mean, if we want to go far back on my origin story, I've loved science since I was a little kid. 


And then fast forward, I did my PhD, and I knew from then on the moment I started my PhD without any context that I did not want to do academia. And I didn't know what that looked like. I had absolutely no idea what other things I could do until I joined a couple programs at Rutgers that introduced me to other things. 


And that's how I got into medical marketing. So this is kind of like the pathway that led me to where we met eventually. So during that, that was a lot of fun, you know, being on the flip side of things of those annoying commercials that people see on during Hulu ads or whatever. 


Unfortunately, I was taking part in those ads and maybe not the copy that what they're saying, but the medical material. So it was a lot of fun. But then my career skyrocketed once I took part in the COVID vaccines. 


So helping with the medical content and leading them for two of them, which was extraordinary. So I do have a background in infectious diseases and biomedicine. So that really, really helped as well. 


So that was a lot of fun. And then eventually my career kept getting better in terms of opportunities that places had for me and bosses I had. But I realized I had a niche for digital health. Another thing that I wasn't really fully grasping at the time, but it was a lot of fun. 


And once I did a couple, I ended up winning a medical marketing award that medical people never win because it's always the marketing people or the copy people or somebody else. The medical people never get any recognition, but I did. 


And that's I started working on that. And then eventually. This is how I met you because I had interned at GSK Haleon and that person brought me back, Richard. And then from then on, I joined Haleon and met you very, very quickly because you were my counterpart on the brand. 


And then in between there, before all this happened, so my founder story starts way back to all this. So I unfortunately lost both my parents to cancers. So my father, I lost to cancer when I was 20. 


So my junior year of college and he had colon cancer and he had struggled for many years. But fortunately he passed from that. And then I kind of knew something was off from then on that there was, it's just weird that people didn't readily die from colon cancer. 


Yes, he was probably stubborn and didn't help for certain things, but his journey felt odd to me. And as an adult and having a lot of medical knowledge, now I know there was. So I helped raise my siblings at then with my mom, but unfortunately years later, she developed breast cancer. 


And this is where the journey really ignited for me because I was a lot older and I was in graduate school. So she passed away the day after I defended my PhD. So she got to see me defend. I got my PhD, but unfortunately the next day she passed. 


So she died a complication from breast cancer, which is pulmonary embolism. And when I found out about that, I looked more into it. And I realized that all this pathway that this journey that she went through originated from the moment when she was diagnosed to her, kind of what we call health literacy at my, everybody understands health literacy, but at the company, what I've developed is educating patients on their health. 


journey, and then taking that information and making informed decisions on their health. And unfortunately, one, my mother didn't really speak English well, or understand it as much. And two, she just kind of let the doctor take control of everything, doctors is not just one, and nothing against doctors, but I really am pro empowerment of patients. 


My mother wanted both breasts removed, and so did I, and she asked me about it, I looked into it, and I was like, that makes total sense, based on what she had. And they ended up just removing one, and they really kind of forced her into that. 


And I knew there was going to be something that was going to happen down the line. I didn't know what it was, but something did. So three years later, that's what she died of, of a pulmonary embolism that killed her instantly because of the breast cancer that was left behind on the other breast. 


So it was forming, and they had missed it. And unfortunately, this is what happened. That's when it really triggered in me that at the time, I didn't know the word health literacy, but I knew that health education was really important to me. 


And that's when I started creating HealthQuest from then on. So I ended up adopting my siblings. They started living with me with my own biological children. And throughout that time in between from marketing all the way to Haleon, I had been developing this company little by little. 


I didn't know what it looked like. I still needed some of the tools. I'm a gamer and so I play a lot of video games. So I always knew I wanted to marry medicine and gaming. And one thing I was just telling my one of my friends is when I was younger, there's some games I could not beat. 


And it was just I was too kid. I was too kiddish. I couldn't, you know, like Mario, Zelda, whatever. And then I would wait like a little bit later to basically get older and smarter and then beat it. 


And that would be good. So I took that learning and did it for my own education of how to start this company. And then eventually I got it all together and I started HealthQuest. And it's deeply inspired by my founder story. 


The people have joined my team as well are deeply involved based on their stories as well. Health literacy or health education, especially like cancers and chronic diseases almost always impact someone. 


Everybody can resonate with this. And I think that's really important because when we start seeing how powerful health education works on patients and even kids, because we focus on kids as well, this is what motivates me and helps me, you know, keep moving forward and developing the things that we do at HealthQuest. 


I was sorry, that was really long, but I was full circle. Yeah, absolutely. I think the context story is important, right? There's the story itself and then there's the environment and the context. And, you know, I'm a strong believer. 


Everything happens in a moment and at a time, and you just try to kind of make sense of it and make some connections. And, you know, it's people who have strength like you to take difficult situations and challenges to see rather than sitting in despair. 


But, okay, how can I take this experience and make sure you help others so that they don't go through the same thing? How can we make it better? Yeah, exactly. And so, first of all, I'm so sorry you, you know, everything you, you know, losing your parents is always difficult and taking that broader responsibility for your family and, you know, adopting your siblings and, you know, that's the, oh. 


a big challenge to take on. But it's all, you know, keeping the family together and that continuity which you took on so admirably. And thank you. So talking about your mom's experience, I mean, it's interesting. 


Her preference, it sounds like I heard you correctly was to get both breasts removed. But that didn't happen. So as you look back, do you think, and I want to just narrow down on the health literacy aspect that you talked about here, particularly with this story. 


Let me put it this way. Knowing what you know now, how do you think that situation with your mom could have been influenced or improved such that what gap was there that what your mom wanted, it seems, didn't actually happen. 


So what actually was that gap? And if you went back to the same age you were then back to that time, knowing what you know now, what would be different to have a different outcome? That's an excellent question. 


So when you look at these patients, like specifically my mom, what happened back then was basically you have this patient who may not speak English well, may or may not. It doesn't matter in either case. 


But telling the doctor they want something, right? And they were told by their friends, they saw it on the internet. All those things bother doctors. And from the beginning of the intro, probably all the way to now with AI, the doctors... 


The doctor obviously knows best, they're medically trained, they have an insane amount of debt coming out of medical school. Why would a patient that has no medical context, Google something and then tell them what to do? 


That's basically how that was taken is why this uneducated woman is telling me that she wants both breast mood when I'm telling her it's for her best interest based on what I know that this is happening. 


And again, I'm not faulting anytime, the doctors because my platform with my company is for doctors to empower them, to empower patients as well. But these situations, the patient should have been hurt a little better. 


But then giving that rationale was like understanding where that patient is in their journey. So do they understand what breast cancer means? Do they know what BRCA positive, BRCA negative? Do they know what we're moving both breast needs and the downstream effects? 


those questions weren't asked, right? They're just like, No, you're wrong. We're going to do it this way instead. So that's not efficient, especially when you have chronic diseases and lifelong changes like that, especially for women, when you know, this, this is a life changing altering thing that's happening to them. 


So I think looking back, and if I put myself in that situation, it'd be around, okay, let's organize our thoughts, understand all the information that we have, which sometimes is very difficult as well. 


You have like the lab results, you have probably like five different doctors giving different, you know, you know, outputs, whatever. But you know, organizing, giving the patient time to digest and understand and then produce information and the decision that they want that they think is best, that maybe sometimes contrary to the doctor, but the doctor still should talk to him be like, well, here's the pros and cons of this situation, 


here's the pros and cons situation, which again, doesn't always happen because unfortunately, the doctors have another cancer patient waiting for them in the other room that's been sitting there for an hour. 


So now I have to hurry up with you. So that's a whole level of complex, you know, issues that come about. But, you know, it just comes down to that education, having time to to be formally educated, to make an informed decision, which is all around health literacy. 


And so if I understand correctly, what what you're really doing is empowering the patient to have that conversation, that dialogue. And we'll get into your solution that you're looking for. But it seems like the problem that you're trying to solve is to enable that dialogue. 


Correct. Yeah. And so, you know, I can go into the platform when you're when we want to talk about it. But essentially, we reveal to the doctor exactly where the patient is in their journey. So, understanding, like, do they understand what breast cancer is? 


Do they know how this, you know, what double mastectomy or a single one works? Do they understand, like, this chemotherapy? So, the doctor now knows, you know, soul, which was my mother's name, knows and understands based on this output that I received, now I feel more comfortable that she didn't just go to an AI software or Google things. 


And now I can have that conversation comfortably because then I can fill in those gaps that she's missing. We're not trying to solve all the medicine. We're trying to have that enhanced communication between the patient and the doctor. 


The patient themselves also feel empowered because now they feel educated. They feel like they're ready to have the conversation, not suffer from, you know, white coat syndrome when they go to the doctor's office and they're like, you know, I feel great. 


You know, I'm fine. Whatever you want, which is not always right for each patient, each patient is different. You know, maybe when your child, the parents are making those decisions for you. But when you're an adult. 


you kind of feel like a kid again. You're like, well, whatever you want, doctor, but that may not be working for you. So giving yourself an understanding of where you are in your journey so that that way you can talk to the doctor at a better level really empowers the patients. 


This is the feedback we've been getting for patients and doctors. Yeah. I think just hovering around this origin story, right, I think is good because it really put any individual at sea. I was recently at a Pharmageddon event and one of the organizers really brought this quote in my mind, which I never forget. 


And healthcare is the one thing that binds us all, essentially, right? And, you know, it's non-political. It's not, I mean, everyone is engaged at some point in their life with the healthcare system. 


So this is something that everyone will experience of having those health challenges and having these conversations. And I think for people to be educated on, you know, well, it's okay to ask questions, right? 


Sometimes, you know, people might feel they don't want to challenge the doctor or, and asking a question doesn't mean you're challenging the doctor, right? It's just really having that dialogue and being comfortable with asking those questions. 


And it benefits the treatment in the sense that, well, then the patient can be forewarned of what to be aware of if something is not going well enough post-treatment or during treatment to say, okay, I've been educated on, you know, pros and cons. 


And some cons I heard about, and I'm not feeling quite right, but because I was educated about it, I'm going to bring it up. Yeah, exactly. And so I want to touch on another thing in terms of your evolution in your career, where you mentioned digital health. 


I think you were really working in the digital environment before it was a thing, right, before there was this name of digital health as such. And so that was part of really learning about communication as well, right, that this health literacy in that medical and marketing role that you had. 


Is there a key surprise or some memorable learning that came to mind that you apply now through what you learned through all of that experience? Yeah. So in marketing, there are more teams than people think, you know, there is a medical person, there is a brand person, but then there's also like health literacy people, there's also an engagement strategist, there's a social media strategist, there's a digital strategist, 


there's all these type of people that I got to work with that really brought in my view of it's not just this two people working together and executing. What I found and it's just remarkable how under utilize these type of people are is engagement strategists. 


And what engagement strategists are is not just like the people figuring out how a user is interacting with the marketing materials or the ads or whatever, it's actually mapping out the journey that the marketing team is going to or whatever. 


And every agency I had been going through each of the engagement strategists were very different. They're all trained different. So to me, it felt like a new field, like people were just trying to figure out. 


But it got better and better, I started realizing, oh, it's getting better and better. And so I met a particular person that just blew me away when I first saw their engagement strategy map for this launch drug. 


And it was like all the touch points that a patient would have in their journey leading to the drug and then all the touch points, the doctor's journey would touch around this drug, like the channel, so where they're going to put the ads or social media, what are they going to say, how they're going to break, but then also how they overlap. 


And that graphic blew me away. And I, to this day, I still, I don't do it as effectively as she does, but it blew me away. And when I look at it, I always think about these journeys when I work on different disease states. 


You know, I think of it as a gamer, I call it a choose your own adventure. So basically giving the options to the patient to choose whatever works for them, you know, most marketing company, metal marketing, they just force you in these decisions to pick their drug, which blows that, that upsets me and blows me away that we still do this. 


I instead flip the script and basically like, okay, I will give you the generic versions of the drugs, which makes us the ability to talk about them through unregulated space. Cause it's education. Um, and it's like, whatever fits for you is what drug you get to choose. 


Um, and uh, she's taught me those skillsets to map out those journeys. So then that's how we also map out our platform experience. Um, so that the patient and the doctor are overlapping, but I thought engagement maps are utterly fascinating. 


If you've, if you've never seen them, um, they drive the whole thing down for the medical team, brand team, medical, uh, marketing team, whomever. It's really cool. That is something that's always stuck to me since the moment, I joined medical marketing. 


Wow, that's fascinating. And I mean, it really is about engagement, right? It's if the user, whoever the user is, whether that's a doctor or patient or other type of caregiver or hospital system, if they're not engaged, then the benefit won't come through. 


Exactly. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, let's talk about your platform or what you're developing. So given your origin story and the why that you were trying to solve and all of this, how did you think about what you're forming? 


And yeah, why don't you tell us about your platform and what you're trying to solve for and what it looks like? Yeah, so when I first started the idea, it was a choose our adventure kind of thing. It's my favorite type of games. 


And I think it also brought in out the experiences for patients and doctors. But as I gain new skill sets every year and learn new things from looking at what companies were doing, medical companies or gaming companies, it started getting better, the formulation of the idea, until I realized that it needed to be a cloud-based platform. 


And the reason why we chose that is to give the accessibility to everyone. That way, people don't have to, some underserved or underrepresented people, patients, gamers, may not have a PC, may not have the smartest phone out there or whatever, but we increased the accessibility that way. 


So I knew that was a must. And then my CTO finally joined after months of looking for someone, they joined and we started working together on the vision of the platform. And I basically brought all my ideas, had it all laid out. 


I had already been pitching before he joined, but we didn't have an actual product because I was missing a CTO. But he really liked the vision and essentially it's a platform, it's two-sided. So, there's a patient side and an HCP side, so the doctor side. 


The doctor essentially prescribes our games to educate the patients. So the games could be for diabetes, it could be for cancer, it could be for whatever it is. They send out those games to the patient and the patient plays it. 


So just think about it like. we are replacing brochures that arcade system of brochures and paperwork that you get. And the moment that you leave, you're probably throwing out, or you're forgetting that you have it because they give you a folder with 30 other ones. 


Like I'm definitely an N of one in terms of nerdism because I will read all through that. And when my daughter was born prematurely, we had all these NICU stuff, like a folder like this thick, I went through it all. 


But I was thinking like, and this is why I was creating HealthQuest. Do people actually read this? They go home, especially new parents. I mean, this was our second child, but new parents, they're probably freaking out, but these doctors are giving them these folders that are so thick with information. 


And that's not how everybody reads now. Like how often do you see people reading through any article? They probably just read the header, the sub, and then maybe look at the pictures and then that's it. 


It's really the engagement of that experience is different, but people have shifted to gamification. So how much people actually value getting rewarded for something. Look at like all these different software apps that you can put on your computer or on your phone where you do something and they reward you. 


So like play games, we'll pay for you. Go use these coupons, we'll pay for you. Like all this stuff, that's gamification. Even on your watches, there's gamification. So we started looking at these things and these concepts so then the doctor prescribes a game, patients play it. 


While they're playing, we have a proprietary system running in the backend that combines gaming and healthcare data together. And then it sends that data to the doctor. The patient can see it as well. 


The doctor then gets a grid and sees, okay, here are the areas that Zena is struggling in the game and in real life and based on her electronic health records, here are the areas that are needing of support and here are the areas that she's good at. 


Then we use our AI to generate insights for the doctor, kind of know which ones he should just, he or she should focus on. Then they get that right and then the patient side similar we kind of show you where you need to work on it We give you patient insight. 


So It's not heavy medical. It's just like let's say it's a 1c or something around mental health or weight loss The AI will just give you insights based on our own data and be like, hey, you know Maybe you should take more walks. 


You're doing a great job. You did a great job. Maybe you know, January 1st Unfortunately January 4th it like, you know, a little fun facts like talk to him like a person And then the patient then will respond to it, especially it's gamified so they get rewarded for these things Now the doctor and patient meet they know exactly what those points were they have that conversation doctor talks to them And and then the care is enhanced. 


There's better outcomes. It's always been shown before gaming Like this has been introducing gamification is Communication with the patients or more communication with the patients actually increases outcomes because the patient is educated when you look at patient outcomes were 88% or nine out of 10, the new status nine out of 10 patients are health illiterate. 


That's an insane number to think about in the United States. Nine out of 10 people are health illiterate. That means their outcomes are poor and it doesn't matter. Well, when you pull it further than you look at socio, you know, economic statuses that can change and actually skew things around, but overall, that's our society, which is really unfortunate. 


Those outcomes are going to be poor. They can have higher hospital visits. They can stay in the hospital longer because they're not improving because they're not taking their medication, they're not adhering. 


And then worst of all, which is obviously my parents became that stat is 25% increase in death. So when I tell people this, they're like, how does health literacy cause death? Well, imagine you have three medications and you have no idea what they do and you take one because you think they're all the same, but the other two are very vital because they work there like blood pressure medication. 


That patient has an increased chance of heart attack and patients actually that are health illiterate that have heart conditions, if they come out of the hospital, they have a 30% increased chance of death coming out of the hospital if they're cardiovascular patients that have issues because it's so important to educate patients to run their heart because they're going to go back and do, you know, drinking, 


smoking, partying, eating unhealthy. So again, health literacy. So our platform is also given at that time where instead of giving you brochure, it's like, hey, play this game and then have a follow-up visit and then we can ping them also to, hey, you know, play the game. 


The games are short formed. They're not like Roblox or Call of Duty or Fortnite, like these big, huge games. They are as simple as playing them on the potty or playing them in the doctor's office while you're waiting. 


You get the information, it's quick and easy. We do have a gamification loop where you can play for a longer period of time. if you want to. But we really want to hit home on the education, get them at the level what they want. 


And if they want more, they can always come back. The platform is free for patients. It's the doctor side that we figure out how to pay for the patients, you know, that is like another pillar of ours, never charge the patients, they should not be charged for this. 


Our insurance companies have plenty of money to pay for software like this. And so we figured out a way to do that. So the patients are happy. We don't want to push this, you know, even if it's $4.99 or $5 or $10, which patients said they would pay. 


I just think about my family, you know, no way that's not sustainable. You know, yes, you could sacrifice like Netflix or something. But what happens if you have kids, I have kids, I need Netflix sometimes because they're, they're bad. 


So I need to give them the distraction for a little bit. You know, I don't want to sacrifice Netflix for that. So we remove those barriers from the patient and the doctor so that It's a better decision, just like it just makes sense. 


Let's just do it. Why not? So that's how we figured out. So all this is under all the strategy work that I've learned throughout my medical marketing experience. And it all comes to play, all of it comes to play. 


Really, really interesting. And I think several of us and me being part of this audience listening to you just now, I mean, a lot of this does resonate because I'm imagining myself getting when I've gotten brochures and stuff. 


And yeah, I do read them like you. But sometimes there's things that are not covered and I have additional questions. And I do end up going to Google or I do end up, you know, looking at Reddit or other groups of, you know, other patients, you know, going through something and try to get more information and looking on YouTube to see what are other doctors saying about such and such. 


But it could very well be I'm barking up the wrong tree. Right. If there's if there's something specific about the condition that's not relevant to mine. Right. Then I might be getting maybe not the best information or not targeted information. 


It might be scaring myself more. Yeah. And and usually what you see on on boards is is usually when people are in trouble or they are, I wouldn't say complaining, but sharing a challenging experience. 


I think the bias is more on that side than sharing, hey, everything was solved and this what I did, unless they are very engaged and that's part of their their personal ethos to to give back and share that information. 


So it can skew someone's frame of mind, right, on, you know, what they're suffering from. And so I really like. This is really about patient first, I think, as people say patient first, and you are keeping the patient in mind. 


It's really about the patient journey and then how they are communicating with their healthcare professionals. But like you said, you're taking away the barriers from that engagement, right? Because if there's that barrier, then they're not going to engage, and then the outcomes don't come delivered, even if you have a really good platform that can deliver, but it's not going to be accessed for whatever reasons and those barriers you're trying to bring down. 


So I think that's great. So really, then this becomes a tool as part of that care. Yes. Yep, exactly. So we give it to the doctors and nurses as a part of their regular processes that they do. So instead of. 


you know, giving a brochure at the end of the visit, they give the health quest game, they go and they play. Obviously, some of the times that a lot of the times patients are as a follow up, especially we focus on chronic diseases right now for obvious reasons. 


And they have to come back or they have to go get a blood test and they still have to come back. So we kind of tie into their journey already. And actually, one of the scoring systems that we put is adherence, which is really important play in healthcare. 


And if the patient doesn't play the game, then her their adherence scores go down. And they'll see that because the doctor the signup between the patient and doctor is really governed by us so that we can support that patient without them doing that extra effort. 


And the doctor obviously, but we will ping them be like, Hey, your adherence scores are going down because you're not playing the game. And we have tied a lot of gamification and importantly behavioral psychology around these things. 


I use the perfect example is the FOMO effect, right? So I mean, it happened to me and my friend over the weekend, we were, we were in Canada, and we saw a line. And it was just like this object that we had no idea what it was. 


We just kept looking at like, what is that? And then we would stare at him. We don't know what it was, but we wanted to go on that line just because we wanted to see what it was. And I felt really FOMO and FOMO originated from like crypto, like we were going to miss out on buying some crypto. 


So we do FOMO psychological things for patients and doctors as well. So the FOMO effect for patients is, Hey, I'm going to miss out getting this better care or knowing that information that the doctor said for me to learn. 


And then there's also the kind of like that mentality that you're back at school, that your teacher is going to be upset that you didn't do your homework with the next time you come to school. So that's all. 


So the mentality is like, Oh, great. The doctor is going to yell at me or say some, so they'll play it. Right. And we make it easy for them because it's only like five, five to 15 minutes of game time, um, they could do it in the waiting room, which is what we kind of talk to the doctors to like, Hey, just do it in the waiting room. 


Why get upset patients when they're sitting there on their phones, like texting their friend, like, Oh, I'm waiting an hour here, or they can play a game. That's actually going to enhance the care that they're about to get. 


Um, so that's what we do as well. Um, but, but yeah, so those are a couple like, um, behavioral psychology, um, things that we do, we, we have one of the world leader experts in gamification and behavioral psychology that joined our team very, very early on. 


Um, he really believed in the product. So, um, he helps us design these things that way and gives, it gives us those insights he has a framework and we really wanted to focus that we don't want to have gamification that's, I call it dirty. 


If you look at some of the other games and gamification like Candy Crush look my one of my founders play can't play is Candy Crush I think it's a very interesting game, but it is hardcore Psychological like it really gets in your head. 


It makes you spend money You know, it has to do with yeah people just in even people of my parents age Just which that makes me just it's obsession Obsession like hours and hours and hours and hours at a time and I'm like I you know I don't I don't get it cuz I have Haven't done. 


I haven't let myself get into that. I I guess the Where I really started hearing about things like that was with Angry Birds when that came out, you know years ago And in Candy Crush then I guess more recently, which is ubiquitous. 


I mean Everyone all over the world. So, okay, so there's the there's a reason why people are obsessed with it Yeah, and so those are those are a couple reasons when you look at the numbers and you bring up a good point because I've been asked this all the time is You're only targeting a certain group of patients because do older people play games and I said absolutely they play games Survey that came out like two years ago that put it into into the different categories So Millennials the Alpha X, 


you know boomers like all this stuff, right? And you see that people that at that time age 59 and up 45% to 60% were playing games now the games could be Candy Crush and that's fine. That's a game still or it could be there's like this YouTube channel, which I think is so funny But it's elderly people playing like Call of Duty or like a shooter game that you need a high coordination and reflexes to play But it's just so funny. 


So there are people that play, but most importantly, if you look at millennials, we're older now. And, uh, we started that generation of games, right? We were born into a race, but I don't want to assume, you know, you, you, uh, you look like a millennial. 


So, um, so it's a compliment. So, you know, the millennials have always played games, but we're older. We're on medication, our kids. You know, now we have kids, so there are, you know, being helped. 


And then the younger generation that everybody loves so much, the social media generation is, uh, they play a lot of games too. That's because games are built into their like Tik TOK, Snapchat, Netflix. 


Like it's already built into it. So they, it's just easy. So games are so easy to get into. And, um, so that's how we utilize like the framework that, um, my advisor uses. We bring it into that game field, but we don't use dirty tactics. 


We don't trick you. We use FOMO effect in the nicest way. It's like, well, do you want to not be the only one not knowing the information when you go into that doctor conversation? Um, so there's a slight, but we also don't make you buy things in the game. 


So a lot of games just have a lot of content in there that you just buy. There are people that spend the money. And unfortunately I, in some countries it's illegal to do like loop boxes or gamble that it's basically gambling, but in this country it's not. 


So people get it, you get them at a young age. Look at people that spend on Fortnite or Roblox, like parents, tens of thousands of dollars thrown away because their kids are just addicted to these things. 


Um, so it's all psychological. It's that, that sensation, that dopamine hit of releasing that box. It opens up. You may or may not get the thing you want. Um, we tie all this together, not the loot box, but we tie all this together to white hat tactics, um, that are good for the patients. 


It helps them. It doesn't impact their psychological, you know, thinking already. Um, we're not trying to, you know, slap their hand, you know, but hey, don't do that. Um, we're more going with their journey and what works with them. 


And, uh, Hey, some, some of these games may not work for patients and maybe that's not the way they're think, but everybody thinks differently. So we try to engage them where they're at. Um, and so far it's been working for us. 


Wow. Yeah. Amazing. So I think, um, you know, back in the day when I first started hearing about, um, you know, when it's, since we're friends, you were, you were telling me about, about, you know, your, what you were thinking in your ideas. 


And I think back then you were still kind of in the, in the area of, well, this is something a little new. Are people really going to engage with. something like this. That might have been some of the feedback you were getting as well, don't recall. 


But certainly at the time, I heard you talking about this when it was an idea stage. It did seem at that time, and that was several years ago, but now when you think about it, things have shifted so quickly in our lives and in terms of technology. 


And now this would just be the, I mean, we're talking about back in the day when digital health was a separate thing, right? And now it's just part of health care. Nobody really should be thinking about digital health apart from health, right? 


It's the way you do think. Like digital marketing, it used to be a separate thing, digital marketing. Now. why it's just part of marketing. Why would you separate and call something digital marketing? 


And I think, you know, like the Gen Z'ers and everyone else, and yes, people, my parents' age are also getting into gaming. And my mom actually is, I'm so impressed. She's really good at texting, you know, she just gets into this really short snippets and she uses abbreviations and all of that. 


I'm going, how did she learn that? I have no idea. But, you know, people adapt and learn very quickly. And I think we shouldn't assume that people who are older don't want to be involved, you know, they still want to be involved. 


And there's that desire for that social connection. And especially when you're older, or even when you're younger, and you're educated about health and what you can do to improve your health. There's all these points of engagement, right? 


Yeah. And so you mentioned about the positive aspects here that you're targeting in terms of the gaming. And I think having the offering of this as part of a treatment or part of care, and being accessible to the patient means that that's taking one barrier away, that anyone, no matter what their socio-economic class would possibly have access to this, right? 


And so that's one barrier taken away. I guess the other barrier would be from the engagement, like the first impression of just the idea of it. I'm going to go through something and it's going to slap my hand and tell me you're not doing this good enough or you didn't pay attention. 


You need to, you know, wag the finger at me digitally or, you know, some sort of aspect to that effect. But you mentioned a couple of words. You mentioned white hat, I believe. And then also you mentioned, you know, gamification in a positive way. 


And you just clarify what you mean by those in maybe not no need to go into deep detail, but how, you know, what's how do you make it positively engaging? Because of course, I think people would probably be turned off as something tells me I'm not doing this good enough, they might just quit. 


So how do you positively engage education in someone's? So, one of my backgrounds is I was a teacher for several years. I taught one of the hardest grades that you could teach is the pubescent ages, which is 7th to 12th. 


Okay. That was, I feel bad for myself when I was a kid and what I did, but that was hard. And what I thank God about that experience is because it taught me that yes, these are not the patients per se that I might be working with, but these are the people. 


If I can talk to them and educate them in a way that they get it, when they don't even want to be educated, they just want to be outside doing, you know, playing or being at home sleeping, then I think I'm doing something good, right? 


And so I took those learnings into also creating the content that we do. Now in terms of, so that's one advantage that we have. The other is the gamification aspect. So thinking about like this, let's say I give you a game and well, the doctor gives you the game and it's, and says, Zina, you have diabetes. 


I need you to play this game end to end. This is a company. Just play it. And you start playing it and you're, you're really engaged with it. And all of a sudden there's a, to find out more about the A1C component of your disease, you have to pay me $2. 


Oh, that's interesting. Okay. I guess it's just $2. All right, let me pay $2. Now you unlock that part of the game. That's for $2 around A1C. So you start playing it and then boom, you want to learn more about, you know, the different treatment options, $3. 


Well, that's weird. So you keep doing that. You keep doing it every time you want to learn more, there's a new paywall. That's how current games are. That's the unfortunate, and that's what I call dirty. 


That is not a tactic you should do to anyone, let alone patients. They're already stressed about money probably, but they're also stressed about what they're going through. So stopping their flow because you want to charge them for something is extremely inappropriate for patients. 


And sometimes they will pay it because, hey, the doctor told me to do this. I know there are studies that show for recommending products or recommending anything to a patient, if that doctor or pharmacist or nurse or whoever it is, is a person in healthcare that gives you that recommendation, there's a 90% chance they will buy or do that thing because it was recommended by healthcare because they're so trusted, 


right? And so if I, as a doctor told you to play it and I trust you, I'm going to keep buying you. So that's the dirty stuff. And unfortunately that's what games do like candy crush. So you, you get, you want to get to level 1000 and you, you keep dying, like, Hey, if you give me $5, I'll give you a couple more hearts and you can try again. 


And then we have the white hat stuff, which is basically. Helping the patients feel good about what they're doing succeeding without the barriers in place. So Putting an earnable way for them to do so in our games. 


We use why have so essentially instead of Buying tokens to go move forward in the game or getting cosmetics or that new level You can earn them by playing the game naturally So we make it in a way that you can earn the tokens by just progressing and doing well in your health And then you get the money to buy maybe a pet by a new part of your house by that rug You've been eyeing in the game, you know all these things and then it feels great Do you get that dopamine? 


Hey, you feel successful because you you you hustled on in the game and you got it that kind of behavioral psychology is very effective For patient and there's better positive outcomes for the patient because they don't feel that negativity behind of like, you know Slap my hand, but I slapped your hand but for two more dollars I will stop slapping your hand and let you keep going. 


That's disgusting and I hate games that do that The final point that I forgot to mention on all this on the gamification is we focus on a subtype of games called cozy There are this this word is Widely used now when I first started playing these type of games. 


It was Unacceptable for many reasons and one of them is like the context of it. It's like oh, you're playing like a little kids game Because some of the games that were cozy were like Hello Kitty or like Disney or like little like kids games But they weren't designed that way So cozy is exactly what it sounds like you could just chill and play the game. 


There's no stress levels to your brain There's no brining. You don't have to be like this playing video games wearing these type of headphones, you know And so we focus on cozy to relax the patient so that that stress level goes down when they're in that environment So our games are also designed to relax, you know, the colors the sounds of the gameplay. 


That's cozy And that's another tactic we use in our games. Now, it doesn't mean all our games are cozy. It's definitely not the case. Some of our other games that we're acquiring right now, we're speaking to different game studios to work with us, to partner with us, to add their games to our platform. 


We currently have five in the pipeline. And their games are not cozy. They're definitely different, ones like a temple run, another one's more not cozy. But more active strategy. So one's a puzzler. So they're all different. 


But I tell them, the only reason why we're targeting them is because they feel relaxing to a patient. We ask the patients, like, hey, would you play a game like this? Not playing it exactly, but the look and feel, does it feel like inviting to you? 


And they told us, yes, so we felt empowered to go after these games. And so then, I guess, but yeah. So let's talk about your. your platform a little further and your pipeline as such and also the name of that because in terms of this audience, it could be healthcare professionals out there as well. 


So the name of your platform or how would people come to know about it or what's the best way to connect with you and then also in terms of you mentioned chronic disease focus so maybe talk about where you're starting so people can reach out to you in those areas and also what you have in mind for the pipeline and look sounds like some of the games you're requiring is to be then used to modify or for other options if I've understood that correctly. 


Absolutely, you're absolutely right. So the website is healthquest-gaming.com and that is the actual platform so if you reach out on the website to us then we can give you private access to the back end which it reveals the actual platform experience with the patient doctor side in the game but other than that you can see the platform you can see how it works on any device and so in terms of that so the platform experience is unified across any kind of system that we put in place so we made sure that work looking back into any type of healthcare system it's easily able to be plugged into our system so we don't actually connect to EHR systems we obviously with my highly technical CTE CEO, 


that was like a big caveat of this, which I obviously, as a tech person, I kind of got it. But until we explained it further, I was like, oh, it actually makes sense. Like let's protect us, the patients and the doctors. 


So we don't actually connect with anybody. We just, we have a proprietary way of connecting to the system in such a way that we still can get that information without knowing the patients, who the patients are, obviously to protect their identity, HIPAA. 


So in terms of, yeah, what the platform is, and then also you're focused on chronic diseases you mentioned. So you could talk about that and then further pipeline ideas you were mentioning. So the chronic disease, so right now we focus on diabetes as our launch. 


We decided to focus on diabetes because of the landscape and it's remarkable how much money goes into diabetes and the numbers just keep getting worse every year. I've been working on this startup for. 


almost two years now. And from year one to now, it's just unreal. It just blows my mind how much money is put in and it's just getting worse. I almost feel like the money is to make it worse because that's what it looks like. 


So I think that the platform in our games will make an impact on diabetes because when we reached out- Let's just pause there a minute. You said it's getting worse. In what way are you commenting on that? 


Just maybe double click there. Yeah. When you look at the diabetes as a whole, so how many people are diagnosed with diabetes, it's substantially increasing. We have in our platform right now, we have an algorithm that depending on where your zip code is, it generates the current stats of your state. 


And when you look at, so if it's New Jersey, Texas, Florida, Washington, wherever, it will generate how many people are currently have diabetes and how much is being spent on diabetes by a patient and how much is being kind of the grants and financial support around diabetes. 


These numbers are in the billions for state like large states like New Jersey, Texas, New York, obviously in the millions in the smaller states, but it just keeps getting worse. We've been tracking this for now two years. 


And when you think about diabetes, it's just like diabetes, but then you think about the comorbidities that are associated. So the diseases that come from diabetes as well that get exacerbated because of it, eye issues, foot issues, mental health is a huge play, which we learned talking to patients. 


And so that's why it's getting worse. And I'm sure that people are thinking of like, well, what about a Zen pick? What about all those stuff? Well, that's because you don't really truly understand how those work, then because if you give a patient a Zen pick, which was originally for type two diabetes, the way those types of those drugs work is it's very short-lived. 


That's why these patients have to stay on these products for the rest of their life. They can't just stop taking Ozempic, if not, they'll get all the weight loss to look good for the summer, but then they get all that weight back, they're going to look a little bit different. 


I think it's like Ozempic eyes or bags or whatever it's called, all these issues with those type of drugs. So losing weight so abruptly and not naturally, you get all these issues, which leads to complications around diabetes still, because your body has been forced to do something and then it's good, but then all of a sudden you go back to eating and being normal. 


So now it's spiking it again. So you're just, it's making it worse, right? You're forcing the body to do something that it wasn't originally intended to do. So that's why diabetes is getting worse. And this is also why we focus on diabetes, because we don't foresee based on our projections that diabetes will improve. 


that quickly, even if everybody's on ozone pick of some sort, um, there are natural products that are in the pipeline. There's alternatives to GLP ones that are in the pipeline. There are current in the market, but as a whole, the United States is overweight. 


Um, we have terrible diets. We have a lot of sugar in our foods. Uh, so until we fix, I mean, I'm not getting into that type of thing, but until we fix those issues, you can't really fix diabetes as a whole, but you can educate patients so that they understand what to eat properly, how to navigate nutrition, why weight loss is important. 


When you should start seeing, you know, the doctor for, you know, pre-treatment for diabetes or for post diabetes, why the ozone pick works for you. And maybe Mounjaro dozen or some other alternative like Metformin, you know, like, but that's what we're trying to do. 


So that's why we focused on diabetes. Um, and, and this is for all the chronic disease. So we do have cancer, we do have eczema, we have GI. So our GI game is actually a lot of fun. Um, I think all our games are fun, but our interns actually created the GI game and I know it was remarkable. 


Uh, I could not believe what they created. Um, so that game is it flips the script and you are the doctor and the doctor, and then you have to diagnose a patient based on like using the Bristol stool chart, um, looking at pictures of poop and, uh, seeing, and then we took it a step further and be like, okay, great. 


So now if somebody knows to recognize what kind of poop they have, do they have Crohn's? Do they have, you know, some type of microbiome issue, dysphoria? Do they have just a Robao syndrome, something, but then to take a step further, this is our educational and gamification system is, well, what if we added a puzzler in that game where you knew how to give that person the proper diet to help them. 


manage their GI disorders. So they took it a step further. I didn't do that. I just told them focus on GI and they did that. So it was remarkable. And they did that. So that's like kind of another way we educate patients. 


So the GI game is in there. GI is very uncomfortable. You know, it's also embarrassing. So we wanted to focus on patients also on that realm. You know, I don't I don't know if it's increased prevalence or just more people talking about it or more specific diagnosis versus increase in prevalence. 


But I hear more and more people saying that they have Crohn's or other type of, you know, irritable issues, which I didn't hear as much before. Suddenly, there there seems to be more of that. And it is very for some people, it's very debilitating. 


I mean, their lifestyles are really hindered quite a bit. And so I think this is interesting where you say the interns, you know, worked on this. And this was a part of a comment I was going to make earlier in terms of how you're how you develop this tool, this gamification digital tool, education tool for patients in turn to engage. 


And this is something that I think is, if it's not already going there, very soon is going to be the primary way people are educated, or the primary way people are getting knowledge. And it's already happening right through through digital. 


But what you're flipping up is through within the healthcare system, doing this, that aligns then with the current society is already there. Right. And so if you're having, you know, interns coming up with these ideas, that's indicative of where we are in society, right? 


What people will expect, like, you know, younger millennials and Gen Zers are going, you know, what the heck is this you're giving me, you know, they would demand more because they know more, right? And so they're saying this is unacceptable. 


Doc, you know what, what's going on here, you're not actually answering my questions, I think they're a lot more empowered. And they're also growing up in the in the digital realm and learning how to speak, right? 


It comes natural to speak on video and to challenge questions and also a lot more activism and taking control. Because I think, especially Gen Zers and younger, and the way technology is advancing so quickly, the lives of my parents is probably not dramatically different than the life I had, right? 


But now the younger generations is completely different than that of my parents, right? And so you're having 100 years of, you know, or if not more advancement in how people live in a very short lifespan. 


So it could be 10 years, right? 10 years from now, it could be hundreds of years worth of evolution we normally would have. So I think engaging with patients in this way and in care is actually expected, will be expected. 


And so I think it's great that you're bringing this forward and already at the same time, your also not staying stagnant, you're also, you know, advancing on what you're providing. So I think that's really fascinating. 


And it just says further what the potential is here. Yeah, when we just recently did a workshop at a university around what we do at Health Quest, and basically educated them on health literacy and, and things like that, which they weren't, they are, they didn't know what the word was, but they knew what the context was. 


So it shows, again, that they understand. And when I told them about what we do on our platform, and basically, like, one of the students actually scared me, because I thought she was gonna say something else. 


But I told them like, well, what if what her example was that she had a headache, she went to the doctor, and I was like, okay, using your example, the doctor sends you Health Quest, because you have a headache, but he doesn't know. 


So he gives you the one of our games, you play the game, and then the doctor comes and sees your scores. And then you came in for a headache, but then realizes your A1C numbers are off. But also, you're having some vision issues. 


And the doctor starts asking you questions about your food, and realizes that that the doctor, not our platform, but the doctor realizes, like, I think you may have early onset diabetes, that blew them away. 


And I said, Well, that's the power of our platform is that to give insights to the doctor that they would otherwise never be able to see, because those aren't readily questions. They're not gonna play 21 questions with you when they have five minutes with you. 


Right? So we're enhancing that. And she she just yells across the room, she goes, Stop, stop, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. You just blew my mind. Is that possible? I'm like, of course, it's possible. 


And I was like, we're doing it right now. And then I showed them, and they were just so, you know, excited. And then I let them do it. So I made them create a medical doc game document, make their own medical game using AI, very simple games. 


And I was flabbergasted by the games that they created. They made personal games too, like games that affected them deeply. Like one of them had their, and grandparents had Parkinson's, they made a Parkinson game. 


One of them has a mental health issue. She put it out there. And it was, I was just telling this to another friend. I can't believe this generation just openly talks about their stuff, their personal stuff, whereas my generation would never talk about stuff like that. 


And I'm, you know, I, I applaud that as fascinating and I'm very impressed with them with that. So, um, so now we have a larger partnership with this university as we expand it to later on this year to a larger crowd at the university. 


So it's a successful things to answering your point is yes, like these kids, I call them kids as younger than us, but you know, these students are very empowered now. They're on TikTok all the time, listening maybe to some people that are actually doctors and maybe they're not, but they want more information. 


They're hungry. So when investors ask me about what about that generation, that's what I tell them like, they want it. They need it. They're already there. Exactly. I mean, it's just a matter of time on that shift of more and more health education games out there, which we are, we're pioneering. 


Yeah. And I think the aspect of the gap that you're feeling, right, is actually is an unknown gap, right? Because the doctor can diagnose based on what they have learned from the patient and along with what labs and other tests they've done, but the better doctor you can be is the more you know about the patient and what they're experiencing on a day-to-day basis. 


And you're unlikely to find that out in a short consultation, right? You'll ask the basic questions, but there's all those hidden insights now and I call them hidden because they're probably even unknown insights, right? 


Like you were just mentioning. And as we get to know more about the human body and physiology and mindset shifts that happen within our, you know, how our body reacts to our mental state and so many other things that there is something that can be completely unrelated that actually is an early sign, but if it's not talked about, about, because it seems like it's completely out of context, it's not going to be revealed. 


Yeah. Yeah, that's how actually I was diagnosed with a rare disorder, because it was my potassium levels had always been low. And no one actually batted an eye about until a nurse practitioner was like, put, put more, he got to know me. 


And my medical history and spent an hour with him and a doctor's visit, then a five minute visit with another, you know, doctor and, and they got me, they got it. And I was like, what? That's fascinating. 


And then, and then he played my platform. He was really excited. Because I said, well, maybe this is how it ties it in. And so it was my pitch to him. But, but yeah, it's exactly to your point. It's just, it reveals things that they may have never the insights that they may have never thought of, considered, or put together because it wasn't available to them before. 


But now it is. And I think that that's that level of that aha moment you heard from those students, right? And I think also this can come through from patients themselves, right? Is that that aha moment of no, actually, I'm I don't go to my physician's consultation of Surrender, right? 


I'm not here and you're just going to surrender and wait for the doctor to ask me stuff I'm actually going to engage with that dialogue and and through this care system that that you've you're making Accessible is I'm going to learn deeper aspects of that and I'm going to be encouraged to ask questions because Not because someone's telling me to ask questions But I'm going to think about things because I'm learning about all of these aspects of my condition that oh, 


wait a minute What about this? I'm curious about that. I'm curious about this. Maybe I should mention that and I think this is what when I first I went to a med tech conference my first med tech conference in 2017 and when I went to that conference that the Someone from Medtronic a leader from Medtronic was asked what what do you think? 


Is the future of digital health, you know, that's how it was raised at the time and he said it makes the patient a better patient and That just blew my mind You know I brought that back and I shared with so many others with Further contacts and things that I learned from from the conference But that that always stuck with me is that this? 


Enables us to go deeper into care than was ever available before And now with the advancement of tools and technology it becomes so much more accessible. Not only does it make the patient a better patient because we're talking about adherence and those kind of educational tools there. 


But what you're also bringing forward from these insights that can be revealed, it makes a physician a better physician, you know, and they're also learning more about their patient. Absolutely. Yeah. 


So, Carlos has been absolutely wonderful spending this time with you today. We could keep going on and talking for hours and hours because we always do. Absolutely. Just another day of one of our hangouts. 


Yeah, absolutely. So happy to have you on this stage here today, Carlos. I think absolutely fascinating and just remind again, what you're bringing forward is called HealthQuest Gaming. And we'll share in the show notes the website and other information so that that people in the audience can go and learn more about it. 


So do make sure to check out the show notes here. And I'll also include Carlos, how to contact you and directly and other information you may want to share. Absolutely, thank you. And yeah, so good luck, Carlos. 


Thank you so much for coming here today and sharing. I think it's absolutely fascinating, really touched to hear from your origin story this is where magic gets created. And, you know, I think absolutely fascinating. 


I'm so excited to see where this is gonna go because I think it's just gonna keep going and get better and better. And I think it can make a real difference. Thank you and to you as well because I think your podcast is doing the same thing, you know, reaching and I've always told you that it sounds really weird saying it out loud but I'm really proud of what you've accomplished so far. 


And I've always thought of you as a mentor because you just know so much and you're also just a good person and it's rare to find someone who knows a lot and isn't a jerk. So, you know, I appreciate you and I'm really happy to be on your podcast. 


It is an honor. And yeah, thank you so much and wishing you the best of luck on the podcast too. Thank you, Carlos. And I'm also gonna share information about how you got me started as being a guest on your podcast. 


They'll also share your previous episodes in the show notes as well because I think it'd be really helpful to people also. So thank you, Carlos. We will talk again off stage. So take care and as you advance, Carlos, I wanna share more with the audience. 


Do come back. We'd love to have you. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. All right, take care. Thanks so much. All right, bye.