Audio Epi 10: Your Organization Is Missing THE Human Connection Point!

AUDIO epi 10 This is the audio of Episode 10 from the IPZO-facto: Innovation—No Way But Forward Podcast.
In this conversation, I explore the power of human connection in healthcare and business with Dunia Darwiche—why intuition, trust, and empathy are not soft skills, but strategic drivers of impact.
We discuss how patient empathy, healthcare compassion, and authentic communication transform the patient experience, strengthen relationships, and fuel sustainable personal and business growth. This episode reinforces a simple truth: when we lead with humanity, outcomes improve—for patients, teams, and organizations.
Human connection isn’t optional. It’s the center of everything.

🎯 Join the InnoPathwayZ waitlist now to access new content first + Founder's bundle. https://innopathwayz.myflodesk.com/ipzwaitlist 
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📣 Subscribe and Listen to the IPZO Podcast here to get notified when released. https://www.youtube.com/@INNOPATHWAYZ?sub_confirmation=1
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➡️ Connect with us!

Dunia Darwiche: Transformation Intuitive Coach, Co-Lead and Chief Heart Officer at Be Human Club  https://www.linkedin.com/in/duniadarwiche/

Be Human Club: https://ca.linkedin.com/company/behumanclub

Zina Manji, Founder & Principal, Regulatory Strategist, InnoPathwayZ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zina-manji/
InnoPathwayZ (IPZ) https://www.linkedin.com/company/innopathwayz-llc/
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➡️ Recommended Books
Personal Power through Awareness: A Guidebook for Sensitive People by  Sanaya Roman
https://www.amazon.com/Personal-Power-Through-Awareness-Guidebook/dp/0915811049

Talking to Strangers: What We Should Know about the People We Don't Know by Malcom Gladwell
https://www.amazon.com/Talking-Strangers-Should-about-People/dp/0316478520

Because with healthcare Innovation, there is No Way But Forward!

Transcript

Keeping that focus on the human at the center and the core. It was the transformational intuitive from a fully certified coach. I saw my mom actually go through terminal cancer. My own experience working for a very, very, very talented surgeon. 


It was this very subtle pattern that had a tremendous amount of effect on patients. And the fluidity of the day would smoothen out a simple step that was taken because where would intuition play into healthcare? 


So the doctor knowing that something that just doesn't quite sit right with us. A little bit of understanding about it. Something either just doesn't quite feel right or done. Accused of learning to trust ourselves is dope-dokey. 


Where a doctor would say, what do you think is actually going on here? Pete's around responsibility and healing. 99.9% of the time, the biggest issue that we find in organizations is the miscommunication from one section of the organization to the next. 


Healthier lines of communication, which are some very simple words, clarity and transparency. I speak a lot about intuition in my work. Intuition's level of consciousness. Is it even an action I need to take today that changes differently towards the pattern interruption? 


Both what a client and a patient might be moving through as they're on a healing journey could be for a practitioner that may be stuck in their own private practice or the chief heart officer taking care of the needs of employees while being stuck to company policy and the HR department and HR employees further away from that CHO energy than they were. 


The client can intuitively sense something just doesn't feel quite right about that business. Because in some ways a lot of employee retention and loyalty comes from a connection to heart. It's not actually a bigger paycheck or a bigger bonus. 


Highlighting the importance of connection and those human beings that are part of the organization that are actually going to improve the performance metrics drastically. Bringing the heart back into innovation. 


And I think you create better. There's a creativity and innovation that you allow people to be for. I know one of my favorite projects that needs to be included is what is the solution to humanity and bringing the human at the center of the solution for the future. 


So we tend to forget this. Like we are all in this together. So you might as well try and figure out how can we co-create and collaborate with much more easy. Well, hello. Welcome to the next episode of Ipso Facto. 


I'm your host, Zina Manji, and I am thrilled to have with me today my friend, Dunia Darwiche. She is coming to us from Montreal, where she's based, a really glorious city. If you've not been there before, highly recommend you visit. 


And today we're going to be talking about health care and putting the humanness and humanity back into healthcare. And also remind us of what it means to be human when we're interacting with our health, whether you're a healthcare professional or you're a patient or you're a caregiver. 


Dunia is a transformation intuitive coach. She interfaces with healthcare systems, including healthcare professionals, surgeons, nurses, medical staff, in both public and private practice. So those are very different systems to navigate with. 


And she also brings insight from a patient perspective as well, which is also very interesting. And she's also an entrepreneur. She has her own business as well as engaging with several other businesses in their programs and her insights and expertise that she brings into other businesses as well. 


So, Dunia, I am so happy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for joining me. And if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself further for the audience. Oh, Zina, it's so lovely to be on here. 


And thank you for having me. And health and healthcare have been just a point of passion for a very, very long time. So my name is Dunia Darwiche. As you can read and I've been introduced, I go as the Transformational Intuitive. 


I'm a fully certified coach. I got certified after my degree and I absolutely love what I do. I'm totally blessed to get to do this work. It's true, true privilege. And so going back to this piece around healthcare, I had the experience as a very young girl. 


I saw my mom actually go through terminal cancer and go through the process of treatment and healing in a medical hospital and a specialized hospital for advanced cancer in her state. And at the same time, also experiencing the incredible modality of like holistic therapies and all kinds of alternative modalities, which were very influential to my career and my own journey in healing. 


And then in about 2015, I went through my own experience quite deep. I was in the hospital for about a month going through a ton of change and transformation and learned quite a bit about the medical field even again from an external perspective. 


And just a few years ago, I had the absolute privilege of working for a very, very, very talented surgeon and a longtime friend of mine that lives not too far in my hometown. He's a colorectal surgeon, very talented, and he allowed me to come into the business and work as his clinic manager as he transitioned from public to private. 


And so I got quite a bit of understanding and experience through that journey, which was fascinating, truly. Before coaching, actually, funny enough, just a small tidbit, I thought I'd go to med school. 


I thought maybe I would, you know, completely change routes and I ended up in the coaching field. So I thought it was a fun full circle moment when I got to work for him. Wow, that's amazing, Dunia. I didn't know some of that. 


So I'm just going to start off with, you know, I guess it has to do with patterns, but when we talk about public, private practice, as a patient, maybe we might not actually realize what's going on on the back end, right? 


There are different things that healthcare professionals go through, especially I think in maybe more and more recent days with a lot of pressures put on the system. And so what was, I'm very curious about what your insights or knowledge gain was between public and private practice. 


And is that something that, well, what did you learn from that? Were there insights, things that you didn't realize that you learned from going through that transformation with the surgeon? So one of the biggest pieces of that experience was definitely being more in the student seat, having not been working in, having not worked in healthcare before and really getting an insight. 


What I found really interesting was actually a lot of the public doesn't understand the public or private system from the patient perspective. And there's quite a bit of judgment. I don't know how it is in the US exactly, but in the Canadian system, there has been, at least from the client perspective, I could notice a lot of patients in some ways torn between this whole concept of doctors going from public to private. 


So it was interesting. I think there are totally pros and cons to both. Yeah, so but it's interesting that you actually observed that transition there. And I guess it is a big decision for patients when they're kind of, I guess they're choosing which system to engage with, right? 


Absolutely. And I think there, it depends on, it's a case by case, really. For each patient, their needs are going to be different varying from one to the next. And some people are, you know, prefer going with a private system, depending where they're at, what their needs are, what their values are also. 


And also some prefer to stick to the public system, some by choice and some not by choice. Some they, you know, that's part of what they have access to right now. Yeah, I guess it really depends on what's needed at the moment. 


So when you're working side by side, right, with the surgeon, and this is your kind of introduction other than being a patient, right? What did you learn there that kind of shapes what you do now? Seems like that was a pivotal moment for you in what you learned there. 


Can you share more about that? Absolutely. I think one of the biggest insights that I got that I started to notice was this very subtle pattern, but had a tremendous amount of effect on patients and on how the entire day, whether it was from the medical staff perspective, the supporting staff of the office or the surgeon or the patient, the fluidity of the day would smoothen out by a simple step that was taken. 


And oftentimes it was, ideally, it was a step taken by everybody involved, but it was taking the time to connect. So one of the moments I remember noticing this, the days where the doctor, the surgeon had time to step outside of his office and come greet each patient in the waiting room in a wonderful but beautiful, casual way, either a fist bump or an elbow knock and just really connecting to that patient. 


All of a sudden, there was this connection that was done. The patient felt more comfortable. They felt heard. They felt seen. The fluidity of the conversation would happen. And the patient was more receptive to the suggestions of the surgeon, his perspective, than oftentimes when the system was so overrided and it was so overwhelmed that it was patient by patient by patient. 


And that moment to connect, we weren't able to take it. So it was interesting to see that little moment that we have to just simply connect with one another can have a tremendous amount of effect on how the day plays out, whether it is for each patient pace or for the entire system of the fluidity of the day, how productive the staff was throughout the day, how fluid the system ran through. 


What was the client or patient's experience throughout the whole process too? Wow. Okay. So that's really interesting. So basically it's just that personal touch. And it can be simple. You know, certain doctors or certain healthcare practitioners and professionals may have their own version of connecting to a patient. 


It may be a joke. It may be, you know, something they remember from their patient. It may be a compliment on what they're wearing. It may be, you know, or a fist bump, those, the little elbow knock, whatever that is, but that simple moment of connection is so key and far more valuable than we realize. 


Yeah, that's true. That's so true. I mean, you can feel that even if you don't have a, you know, you're not reading a study that actually backs that up. But I imagine there are some information that backs that up with the human connection. 


But just intuitively, you know, to be seen, you just feel so much better. It puts you at ease. You create an openness for a dialogue, I think is really, really important. And, you know, recently I was doing a talk in a program. 


And one thing that came to my mind was that as we are focusing more and more on technology, and of course, technology is good, we learn a lot more about what we are experiencing, what's happening in the human body through different types of sensors and, you know, able to do microsurgeries and all sorts of things with technology. 


But the one watch out, I think, with technology, especially when it comes to even scheduling patients or having patients engage with forms or things like that, or even how they come into the office. If it's too technology-based, you lose that human touch. 


And we forget that healing has a lot to do with human touch. You know, looking into the eyes, look into each other's eyes, that touch makes such a difference on just being, being seen, being heard, being acknowledged, but as a human being, as an individual. 


Absolutely. And at times when there's so much demand on our healthcare professionals, they forget, and we all do, really, that there's a human being really in front of us. And they are at the core and the center of that journey that they're on. 


And so, and this is actually one of the issues that we're seeing in the system both ways. The patient is also at times forgetting that that doctor, this healthcare practitioner, this healthcare professional that's standing in front of them is also a human with their own story, with their own life, with their own frustrations. 


And so if we allowed ourselves to see one another a little bit more, we would be in a much more cohesive system versus seeing it from strictly our own perspective with these, at times, these blinders on, that creates this fragmented system. 


Yeah. Yeah. So that's really interesting. There's the system itself is set up in the way it is. But how we actually engage with the system or not can make it even more fragmented or disjointed, I guess. 


Absolutely. And you can see this, and I'm going to give an example that is so far from healthcare, just so the average person can take a moment. After grocery shopping, what do you do with your cart? 


Do you put it away? Do you think about the next person that's going to make their way into the grocery store? Like, are we leaving the spaces we enter better than we found them? So when we start acting from this perspective, thinking of, you know, in French, we say pasius vivat, to think of the next person, then we start to work in a cohesive system. 


I may not know this next person that's going to grab the cart. I may not know this next person that's going to be the following patient to the practitioner, the surgeon, the doctor that I'm seeing. But if I am allowing myself to just ask a simple question, what is one small step I can take today that is going to serve the next person right behind me or that will follow me or that will, you know, be the next in line for whatever I'm experiencing right now. 


Wow, we would really live in quite in a different world to a certain extent. Yeah, it's very true. I mean, I reminded of, you know, when you're in the airplane bathroom and, you know, there's a little sign, please wipe it down, you know, for the next person. 


And actually, that does make quite a difference, right? We walk in, you're going to be completely turned off. It's like a complete mess. So really, it's that humanness of acknowledging not only yourself and the condition that you're going through, but really also how are you engaging in a humanistic way and not, let's say, a very self-centered way? 


I think there's a balance there, right? When you're going through a condition, to some degree, you do want to be self-centered, right? You want to ensure that you're getting all your questions answered in that dialogue with your healthcare professional. 


Because the worst thing is, is walking out and saying, oh, wait a minute, I forgot to ask this or that. Or wait a minute, what did that actually mean? What did they say? I didn't catch the term, right? 


And I think that's the other thing is really understanding that, yeah, just because the healthcare professional might be very busy, might be trying to get through the day in terms of how many people they're caring for in that day. 


But there is still an opportunity to pause as a patient, to slow down the dialogue and say, you know what? I actually didn't hear what you said. Can you spell that for me? What does that mean? And so you can still dialogue and bring that humanness back, even if that environment is not there in the moment for you. 


And then, as you say, you know, when you're leaving something behind for the next person, I think that's important. Yeah, there's a really good point you bring up, Sina, that makes you think of another piece I'd love to share is this piece around responsibility and healing. 


So many of us, and I think that this happens in almost every field. So it's just honoring that this isn't just to healthcare. This is in almost every field where there's an expert and there's a Kleiner patient on the other side. 


There is so much projection oftentimes onto the expert to be the one responsible for the healing, be the savior, be, you know, the ultimate hero. And the reality is, is the truth is the expert can lead you as much as they can. 


They can provide you the tools. They can provide you the knowledge, their experience. But really, the responsibility of healing really lands in the hands of the patient. And it doesn't mean they're alone. 


But keeping this in mind is, am I truly being proactive in the process of my healing? And some people may get very triggered by this question because they may say, I've taken all the time in the world. 


I've done so much research and I still feel alone. And granted, we are in a difficult time where the world is transitioning. You know, the systems are transitioning. We're seeing this dual system in both the US and Canada where we're living with a private and a public care system. 


And we're trying to navigate the quirky ins and outs of both, the differences between both. There's a ton of demand and not enough supply for that demand. Practitioners are exhausted. Patients are disappointed. 


So it's, of course, that there can be those, there can be those emotions that come up of saying, oh my, but I feel forgotten in the system. So it's just asking yourself, is there one other thing I can do today to be more proactive in this approach? 


It can be more responsible for my healing and process. And how can I allow myself to connect to the person in front of me, whether they are the patient, whether they are the healthcare practitioner? You know, those moments of connection also create a sense of responsibility. 


So I know that when I'm working with someone and I feel deeply connected to them, I feel in some ways responsible also for what they're moving through because I feel like I really want to help this person out. 


Suddenly I feel this connection. I feel I want to be as proactive and, you know, and helpful to this person's journey. But if there's that sense of disconnect, there may not be a sense of responsibility at the same level. 


And I think, you know, as a patient, when I'm putting myself in the patient role, what I try to do is, you know, whether it's with loved ones or with myself, is make a list of questions. What are the questions that I have? 


Because even though I consider myself educated, oftentimes you're in the moment, your mind goes a little blank because you're trying to understand everything that's being said. So I go with the list of questions and make sure that my questions are answered or just, you know, am I, it's kind of like an aid memoir, right? 


And obviously during the consultation, there could be more questions that come. But having already given myself permission to ask questions by making a list, and there have been a couple of times I actually gave the list over and say, you know, could you help me understand these questions further? 


But there have been times just the process of going through a question list, even if it's just for my own benefit to remember in that dialogue, it gives myself permission to ask questions live during the consultation as well, things that didn't come to mind before. 


Because I've already kind of crossed that mental barrier that, wait a minute, I've got something I need to come out of here with, and I want to make sure I have clarity. So I've already thought about that ahead of time versus other times when I've just gone in with no thought, you know, at all. 


Just let me hear what the doctor's going to say. All of those times I've forgotten to ask something or there was something that I missed. And so what are also the, you kind of went through this as well a little bit, but maybe go a little deeper that, you know, as your own patient experience and the patterns that you see that are happening today, right? 


You did mention that there is kind of a systemic issue going on. Can you go a little deeper in that framework in terms of the systemic issues and the empathy or intuitiveness that happens there? I'll give a great example. 


I remember, and I'll give them in the two different scenarios. Having, you know, I was a, you know, a teenager, having stood by my mom's side as she was, she was very, very sick. There's this incredible thing that happens when, and you see it. 


You can see it. A lot of the practitioners that are in this field, whether they're healthcare nurses or doctors or specialists, you know, they do it because they love it. It's a lot of work. It is a huge life commitment. 


You know, I may not, maybe not everybody is doing it for those exact reasons, but truly, so many of them are really passionate about what they do. And there's something that's really precious and magical that happens when a patient is in the presence of someone who, like a healthcare worker, healthcare practitioner, a doctor, that is doing this purely out of the goodness of their heart and they love what they do. 


There's, you know, it's almost slightly indescribable. It makes me a little bit emotional after all these years, you know, that dedication that happens. What can what we do notice, and I've noticed this from every perspective possible. 


I've noticed this from the perspective of having stood by my mom's side, having been a patient with my own mental health journey around the year of 2015, and having been a clinic manager for a specialized surgeon. 


One of the toughest things in the system is the communication throughout the system. And like I studied organization development and organizational change, 99.9% of the time, the biggest issue that we find in organizations is the miscommunication from one section of the organization to the next or from multiple sub-pieces or sub-parts of a system. 


And so what do we need to do is actually increase our quality and quantity of communications. So what parts of the system need to be communicated better? Are they hearing each other? Are they understanding what one another is saying? 


And what can we do to create healthier lines of communication, whether it's from a patient to a practitioner or practitioner to a patient or from one specialist to a GP that definitely needs some work, whether it's through patient portals, whether it's through actually, you know, making sure to confirm that results are arriving on time, whatever that might be, I think those are some big issues that we've seen throughout the years and I've seen throughout my experience for sure. 


So definitely there's something there. And also kind of bringing it back to that piece of, am I being proactive to the system? Am I not just thinking about what I need to get done today because I am in survival mode and I'm absolutely burnt out and exhausted? 


Do I have just a little bit more capacity to think, wait a minute, the decision that I'm making now, is it the best decision for the entirety of the system? And it's like, okay, actually, now that I'm asking the secondary question, my original answer may have shifted quite a bit. 


Or it confirms that, wait, no, this is right. And this actually does serve the collective. You will never serve the entire collective. You will never be able to please everyone in the process. But is this the best decision on the table currently that serves the entire system as a whole? 


That's a great point because I think, you know, systems are very complex and they're a pain to deal with, right? And, you know, there are technologies now that are being put forward to try to lessen the burden on the healthcare professionals so that there's less friction and they can spend more time on care versus kind of trying to make the system work. 


But what you're talking about also is that communication aspect and clarity of that communication is so important in how you engage with the patient with follow-up or even in person. I think that's a really key point because systems often, at least traditionally, initially, don't consider that communication. 


It's more of a systems management. It's more of management of information and maybe interface with different departments versus kind of is this easy to work with? And I think now there's more focus on that than there has been in the past because we've seen that breakdown and the consequences of that breakdown, it leads to more burnout and a lot of frustration, even with healthcare professionals. 


And then, of course, patients are driven crazy by trying to find things through the patient portal system. So I think that's really, really, really a key point. Something as simple as communication and clarity of communication is so easy, but yet in a technology world, it can become quite complex. 


Absolutely. So some doctors get a rum around that, I've seen, where just sending a text message, you know, saying, hey, you know, I'm Dr. So-and-so. I saw you earlier. You know, hope you're doing okay. 


That personal touch, I've been really impressed with that. Absolutely. And it allows the client and the patient to truly feel seen. And it's like, oh, wow, I'm not left in the dark. I'm not opening up to this moment of clarity, this window, this opportunity where I have to squeeze all my questions in, make sure I'm seen, make sure I'm heard, you know, advocate for my needs, make sure that I am scheduled for those tests and get the results on time. 


And then all of a sudden that window closes and I'm stuck in the dark again. But yeah, that piece of having, you know, having that sensation or feeling that that practitioner, that healthcare provider really is going to walk this journey with you as you make your way on to the closer to healing. 


Yeah. And maybe kind of a side comment here from this actual conversation. The other thing within that window is to understand how much is covered by insurance. That often is not completely known during that window. 


And so that's the other thing, I think, if that can be so. Yeah, I do remember a lot of patients having that concern. And what can be tough is, at least from the little bit of experience I have, the healthcare providers have so much that's changing on the medical front and that piece of like new medical technologies, new techniques, new laws around treatments that oftentimes they don't keep, it's not within their focus, 


their area of focus to keep up on, because every single insurance provider would have different policy, the policies change, and to know all of them is so much detail. So this is again where there's patient responsibility. 


And I know I've heard it so many times. So many patients are frustrated with that piece of having to communicate between doctors and insurance providers. And I think there's a great business model of someone out there wants to play liaison between both of those. 


But that definitely, I could see that that was a big piece of frustration for sure. Yeah. I think that in and of itself would relieve so much tension on both sides throughout the healthcare system, right? 


Totally. Fear. There's two ingredients to that communication I want to bring up, which are very simple words, clarity and transparency from all angles. As a patient, as a practitioner, how can I introduce more clarity and transparency in my communication? 


It's like, that would probably step a lot of things up and remove some of that clutter and that frustration that we're seeing in a lot of these situations. Yeah, really good points, Dania. So in your coaching practice, how do you work within your coaching practice? 


And how have you seen that help in healthcare? So what's been incredible, which I loved, I've had my own coaching practice since 2018. It's been such an incredible journey and I love what I do. Like I said earlier, it's a privilege to do what you love, truly. 


It really is. I count my lucky star every day for it. And I think one of the biggest things that I see is I speak a lot about intuition in my work, intuitions, level of consciousness, the trend, and why it's so important to have a good understanding of the transformational process or the transformational journey as someone is transitioning from one phase of their life to the next, whether it's an identity change, 


whether it's a career change, whether it's a personal change that is affecting them on all fronts. It's so important to, in some ways, have a guide to help walk you through that process. Even though you will know, and the best guides, I think, truly remind you that you have the keys to your future, you have the keys to that, and you have it within you to create this. 


All you need is either some more trust, a little bit more strengthening through certain exercises, a new level of awareness of who you are and where you're going and how to get there. So it's been a journey. 


And it's continuously changing. It's a practice that's evolving regularly. I say every single client is my teacher, truly. I learned so much from every single one, and it's been amazing. And the dream really would be to one day help the two pillars that interest me most in this whole world, which have always been healthcare and education. 


Because I truly believe those that are in healthcare and those that are in education are the true, you know, the true givers of society, the true philanthropists of society with their time, energy, effort, their heart, their expertise. 


And if it wasn't for those two pillars, this world wouldn't survive another day and wouldn't actually thrive for the next 50 to 100 years. So it's, you know, eventually I would love the practice to give back to those two pillars of society and those two industries. 


So we're working our way through it. I've worked with a lot of healthcare providers in my private practice as a coach. I've had the absolutely incredible opportunity to work with the surgeon. He's so talented, charismatic, you know, and an excellent surgeon. 


I've had the immense privilege of getting to know him personally and getting to know his practice and even getting to walk into surgery with him and seeing him perform. Like, you know, there's something like when you see someone walk on the path of their true calling and they're very talented at it, it is an incredible sight to see and to be in service of those that are living that truth and just need certain tweaks, 


whether it's in the business, whether it's in personal development, whether it's level of consciousness or through transformational processes, because oftentimes it's models of reality or perceptions and perspectives that are holding us back from the next level of success, whether it's in our businesses, in our careers, at home, with our spouse, in our marriage. 


So how to address those and shift those models of reality, shift those perspectives to be able to then invite this next level that's being asked of us. There's a lot there, Dania, and I want to break it down a little bit. 


So first of all, I think when you talk about the broader ecosystem that we live in, right? And those important factors that are in our ecosystem, the better those aspects of the ecosystem are served, the better we all are, right? 


It helps all of us. And I think that's a really good reminder that as much as we might want to be isolated at some points in time, we do live in a society. We are a tribe, right? It's a human tribe, right? 


We are a tribe. And the more that we can serve the tribe, the more that we allow the service of the tribe, I think the better off the human condition, right? Because we do rely on services from each other. 


And this is the ecosystem that we've built. So the better off the ecosystem, the healthier the ecosystem, the better it is even for us individually, where we can also thrive, right? But let's just go back right in the beginning of what you said about the model. 


You said the shifting, you know, to allow the transformation. Can you double down on that a little bit in terms of what is it that needs to be shifted that you just mentioned about the model? So what we call them models of reality. 


So they're the stories and the belief systems that we have that are actually driving our life. Some of them are conscious and some of them are unconscious. So the more we do some personal development work, and it doesn't have to be, it can be simply reflective and building that self-awareness, the more they go from unconscious to conscious. 


When we start to be conscious of our models of reality that drive and rule our life and in some ways influence our decisions and our actions that we take regularly, then we're much more proactive in that approach and transformation as we're moving through life. 


So so many of us, or in some ways, we may grow and then stay stuck at a certain level for a while because there's certain models of reality, certain stories we believe that we tell ourselves either consciously or unconsciously that are keeping us at the level and in some ways delaying that breakthrough to the next level, delaying that breakthrough process to this new identity, this new piece, whether it's a promotion, 


whether it's a new career, whether it's the next level of the business, etc. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. So it's really just slowing down and understanding where our belief systems are coming from. Yeah, where they're coming from. 


What are they? Maybe where they're coming from. What is the cost and influence that they still have? And what I may be getting out of them, actually, because they're there. They're also keeping me protected, an illusion of protection. 


And what would happen if I were to break them? What is the gain or the win, the results that would happen if I would allow myself to shift that model of reality? It's like, wow, okay. And then what action I may need to take today, what decision or action I need to take today that chooses differently. 


So it's a pattern interruption. And then what we're doing is we're at the beginning of a new pattern creation. Interesting. Really interesting. So this is also about kind of human behavior as well, right? 


We talk a lot in healthcare about behavior, right? And this also, I think, is very similar in terms of we're trying to break practices and default, I suppose, even, you know, behavior of patient behavior or how we're interacting with our healthcare or not, right? 


Because oftentimes with treatments, we have to bring in new practices, maybe import a different lifestyle in order to live healthily. And then there's these models of reality, as you talk about, as you mentioned. 


But that's very connected with that neuroscience and, you know, behavior models as well. Totally. So this in some ways is depictive or descriptive of both what a client and a patient might be moving through as they're on a healing journey and trying to get to a place that is not quite where they're at today. 


And then this may also be for a practitioner that may be stuck in their own private practice or business and may be thinking, oh, there's something just no longer working about how I'm functioning the business. 


And then what needs to shift for me to be able to go to the next level? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think so much there, Dunia, but I think you've described it in a really interesting way. So if people wanted to learn more about what you just talked about, what would you, like if people are interested in this, you know, and learning more about it in terms of their own lives, what would be your suggestion through these exercises to raise or expand that level of consciousness, 


which is really just self-awareness is growing. And the more we can allow ourselves to be more and more self-aware, then the more we can actually take responsibility for our actions and decisions in life. 


And then be able to choose differently, be much more proactive in that approach of how our life is moving and shifting and transforming through the phases. So if anyone's curious about this work, because, you know, there's so many exercises one can do around this, but there have been some great books I've read throughout the years. 


Some of them were like personal power through awareness. Some of them are way less spiritual and I find very, very interesting and reflective. Like Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell was instrumental in my work and the way I see life and I see even business. 


And I actually, it touches on a lot of what we talked about today. So many times we judge other parts of the system. We judge other players or components of the system because we're not actually taking the time to communicate and get to know what is life, what is the reality, what is the system from their perspective. 


And that really touches on that piece of the world will heal and the world would understand so much more peace and understanding if we allowed ourselves to sit at tables with people that do not share beliefs, that do not have our perspective or experience. 


This is where finally the system will understand itself. So there have been so many books. If you're curious about books, you can tag my name below the video and I will pop a ton of them in here. Oh, perfect. 


I will do that for sure. Yeah, I think there's a lot of different directions to go from, but yes, yet I think there's a common base, right, upon which to learn this. And further, Denya, from a business model perspective, right? 


And there's this positive or energy. Let me just say energy, right? There's a certain type of energy when you're running a business that can be impacted, right? And it comes from how you, as a leader, run the business, but also who you hire, what are the culture of the business and all these aspects. 


And I think you've engaged in a really interesting role, which is CHO. So I'll let you explain the CHO, what that means, and how you came about it. But it's really important on going, I think, beyond kind of human resources, but really about people and also that responsibility, I think, of that culture creation with intention, but also understanding when things need to be fixed or amplifying things when they're happening well. 


So if you could talk more about your experience on that, on the business side and the actual role. So this role came from an idea after a dinner conversation with a great friend and very mutual connection between Zina and I, Brennan Kumar Sami. 


Him and I were out for dinner one night and he says, have you ever heard of a CHO? And I said, no, what's a CHO? And he's like, you know, a chief heart officer. And he was like, I was like, no, like, tell me more. 


He said, well, Gary Vaynerchuk ended up changing the title of Claude Silvers, which was head of HR at Vayne Media. And basically what ended up happening is she started this movement through this concept of the CHO. 


And he's like, this is you. This has been you your whole life. Like, this is so on run. And I was like, I love this idea. And I think that many people who find themselves in HR today, if they were originally connected to the human being from the beginning and they were really thinking, okay, I want to work in a field that takes care of the human being within the corporation organization. 


Really, the intention was they had CHO energy from the beginning. Sometimes, though, oftentimes, HR is in some ways conflicted between company policy and being stuck with certain directions the company may be going in and being the middleman between managing or taking care of the needs of employees while being stuck to company policy. 


And that, in some ways, that sandwiched discomfort place uncomfortable place has oftentimes led the HR department and HR employees further away from that CHO energy than they originally started with. 


So just wanted to touch on that a little bit. Not everyone, but I know some of them out there are feeling, oh, if only I could be a little bit closer to heart and why I originally chose to do this work. 


So what is a CHO really is about bringing heart back into the organization. A client that is buying from a business can feel if there's a healthy heart behind that business. And what is the heart? The heart really is that company culture, that symbiotic feel, the health of the ecosystem as a whole. 


You know, how is an organization? No organization is perfect, but how is the health of the organization on the back end? And you may think the client doesn't feel it because they can't see it, but a client can intuitively sense something just doesn't feel quite right about that business. 


Well, they can feel that pulse because everything is done with that intention behind it. So I started playing with this concept of the CHOs, like, how do we bring more heart, whether it is to the organization itself and its health and its culture, to its employees and their relation to the organization and its mission? 


Because in some ways, a lot of employee retention and loyalty comes from a connection to heart. It's not actually a bigger paycheck or a bigger bonus. Even though bigger paychecks and bigger bonuses are lovely to get and receive, that connection runs much deeper than that. 


And then it's understanding like, how is the connection between the heart of the client that is buying from this business? So where's the connection between the business's heart and the client's heart? 


And so it's been really interesting to bring up these concepts and these topics to corporate and a lot of my clients, my one-on-one clients, my group clients, my corporate clients. So yeah. Yeah, really interesting. 


And I think many of us can feel. I mean, I've felt in my corporate career how that interface with HR has changed, right? And where before I really felt I was a person known by name, right? To then becoming abstracted in the larger ecosystem or a larger system where you become a number. 


And the number is based on performance metrics and all sorts of things, but not actually who you are and what you're doing. And also sometimes it forgets the history of things in terms of, you know, whether it's a sense of loyalty that you've provided to the business that there's no measure for that. 


And, you know, other sacrifices you may have made to ensure that a project was succeeded. I don't believe there's any kind of metric for that, right? It's really metrics, performance metrics seem to be very much in a point of time metric, like yearly or quarterly, you know, in having served the objectives. 


But there's no other type of metric, as far as I know, in terms of who you are as a person and what culture that you're bringing into the environment. There might touch on that a little bit, but I don't think deeply enough because when there are, and I've not been late, luckily I was not laid off, but for those who are, it's very personal, even though, you know, and I've had team members who reported to me who were laid off. 


And so that was a very difficult situation. Because, you know, the mantra is it's not personal, right? But actually it is personal because you've that the individual impacted has kind of lost their role and lost the service that they were doing. 


And many who are working within corporate healthcare, similarly on the clinical side, are doing it because they are wanting to improve the human condition and serve healthcare products. So there is that mentality of wanting to do good in the world, right? 


So it is, hits you kind of hard when you're in that situation. But then large company versus small company. Sometimes the smaller company, just because there's less people, you actually know the HR person by name. 


It's not a 1-800 number. Unfortunately, a lot of companies have moved to a 1-800 now. I think there's something important, though, that you're bringing up, Sina. And I think that there is still so much value to performance metrics that it's not to negate them. 


And I think that companies have, in some ways, because of such budget cuts in the times that we're moving through right now, the first thing to cut on budgets like, you know, the wellness programs, these extra activities, those pieces. 


And so many of us forget that it's actually through highlighting the importance of connection and those human beings that are part of the organization that are actually going to improve the performance metrics drastically. 


So oftentimes when we're looking at our spending and our budgets in organizations, we may actually be distracted by what we think is important and forgetting what is actually important because we're so actually we're focused on what's urgent and we're forgetting what's important and what will actually serve us in six months, two years, five years, 10 years down the down the line. 


Yeah, well, 100%. And actually, even when in the 1-800 number system, I have to work hard, but eventually, you know, reaching an individual, they have provided outstanding service and definitely wanting to have that heart to help. 


But it's the systems that's stopping them from being their best, I think, you know, in that case. So yeah, really interesting. And so putting the heart back into corporate, right, is so important, especially when you're in high pressure environments and businesses are highly pressured. 


There's a lot of competition. You're trying to do a lot at once and you're trying to do a lot with less. It's sometimes justifiably so because you have advanced technology and you can do things better than the old manual ways that were needed before. 


So some of those changes are justified. But I think that makes such a difference. And our earlier conversations we were talking about together in our recent mastermind we were both at in Montreal was, you know, the innovation itself. 


When you are innovating and if you are innovating in a more intentional way, right? Bringing the heart back into innovation kind of, right? Not kind of. That's actually what you're doing. That idealistic. 


And I think you create better when you have heart that you're bringing into the innovation. Now, taking that away from kind of a woo-woo sentiment, it's more about, you know, when you're innovating healthcare products, there's a user at the end. 


And the user is a healthcare practitioner or a patient, right? Or perhaps an insurance model. Yeah. So, or a combination, maybe your healthcare product interfaces. So if you're not just creating for the sake of creating something new and a new shiny ball, right? 


It might be a good shiny ball. It might actually have some new aspects as bringing forward. But if there's a lot of friction that's involved in order to make it work, it's not serving in the best way that it can. 


And so I think it behooves innovators to think about, to bring that heart back in, thinking of themselves as being the patient. And we talk about patient first in innovation, but actually really, the word that you use a lot, really embody that, right? 


And bring that in while you're innovating. I think you have a lot more insight into, is this actually serving? Now, maybe it's doing a good job, good enough, but couldn't it do better? Couldn't we optimize this better so that people can use this innovation to help people live well, but in a more sustained way, because we innovated it and designed it a little bit differently so that it can have ease of use. 


And actually, you know, a lot of times in conversations and innovation, this would come up to say, well, then we won't meet the timeline. Okay, well, that's an ROI discussion, I think, that can be debated because if you tweak it a little bit, it takes six more months to do that or three more months to do that, you actually might last longer and it might serve your ROI because it does such a good job. 


And how do people feel when they're using that product? I think that's such an important aspect to think about when you're innovating. And if you have to make those ROI choices, I think have that intention that you're going to improve it. 


Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that piece around like the focus really is around the human. And it's even this piece around the heart. I think that as soon as you connect more to the heart, whether it's the person you're serving, whether it's the heart of the organization or ecosystem, there's this collective intuition. 


There's this collective awareness that starts to show up. There's a creativity and an innovation that you allow for more space for more than ever before, which is really powerful. But really, I think the future of this world will know a much greater end or chapter, next chapter, when we keep the human at the center of what we're creating, for sure. 


Yeah, absolutely. I'm an optimist at heart. And I think, you know, humanity is about survival. And I think survival will dictate that things by nature will get better. Absolutely. Now, we could also make it more difficult for ourselves, but I sense that there is kind of a sea change happening, especially after COVID. 


And without getting into a debate about the vaccination debate, but more about how people are living, quality of life, right? I think much more important to people than there were before because life stopped and we paused and thought, wait a minute, what the heck is my life all about? 


What does success mean? I see a lot of Gen Zers thinking more this way, right? And I'm hopeful that they are the ones who are actually going to bring forward more of that change. And so it's wonderful talking with people like you, Dunia, because you're one of those who are kind of imparting that vision as well and helping people go through those transformations. 


Where you talk a lot about the embodiment. And I think there's a diagnostic tool that talk about intuition. Can you talk more about how that shows up in healthcare? I think you alluded to it, but maybe you could talk about it more specifically. 


So I think one of the big things is where would intuition play into healthcare? So there's a few things. If you think about it from the client and patient's perspective, oftentimes a lot of us have ended up at the doctor knowing there's something that just doesn't quite sit right with us, whatever that might be, whether there are symptoms, minor symptoms, major symptoms, something, but there's some kind of connection that we have to the body and our understand, 


and even if it's a little bit of understanding of the body, that something either just doesn't quite feel right or it does. So it's learning to cultivate that level of self-trust while knowing that there's an expert sitting in front of us that also has their version of intuition. 


I've oftentimes seen doctors look at cases and say, you know what? Nope, something's not right. I need to dig in deeper because I'm not getting the results on this test that I thought I would get. And there's got to be something behind the story. 


So those subtle cues of learning to trust ourselves is so, so key. The other piece that I oftentimes say is, I would love to live in a world where I'd see doctors take the time to ask. And I know that this requires time. 


So I really want to honor that. I know that doctors have their plates very, very full right now. But the moment where a doctor would say, and what do you think is actually going on here to a patient? 


Just to return that one, that sense of responsibility and that level of self-awareness back to the patient. So my invitation is if you are a patient, before you go into a doctor's office the next time, ask yourself on paper, what do you think these symptoms may actually be coming from before I step into that space? 


Just to start, even if you do not know, just simply asking yourself the question is starting that process far more effectively than going in blindly and unprepared. Yeah. So I'd say that those would probably be some interesting places where intuition has played a role in healthcare and where I would like to see it played also in the future. 


That's amazing, Dunia. That's really a mind shift change, I think. It does, I think, which is really amazing here is when you're dialoguing with your healthcare professional, you have already thought about these things and you can bring it forward. 


Because in that time, like you say, that window of opportunity that you have with the healthcare professional is that you've thought about this ahead of time. So you can say, you know, actually, I haven't been sleeping well. 


And I haven't been sleeping well since whatever or whatever's happening with your diet. Or maybe it makes you think, when did you first start having symptoms of concern? There's a wealth of information there that can help the doctor figure out and test what might be going on versus without that information. 


Incredible, I think very simple shift there, Dunia. I think that's really valuable. Pleasure, truly. We also talk about, you know, how if we think about healthcare in the future, there's an opportunity for precision, customization, right? 


And I think from what you're also saying from intuition side and from how you show up, right, it also brings to bear what could be better evolved and centering around humanity. Absolutely. I think there's a lot of opportunity here in the future, especially with AI, where we can start delegating a lot of these tasks and the support to the medical field, to healthcare, and to a lot of other fields, 


really. And we can actually spend more time connecting. We can spend more time building that relationship to our practitioners, building our relationship to our patients, building our relationships to other departments or other parts of the ecosystem, and really getting to be part of the solution while we're not spending so much time, effort, and energy in certain places that don't need to be spent. 


We're actually AI or machine learning can actually spend, can be far more accurate and more efficient time-wise to be able to support us in this. So, but it's about really keeping that focus on the human at the center and the core and really keeping that as the main point of focus, because really that's why we're in this field and that's why we're even talking about this today. 


I know one of my favorite projects that has been just recently is the Be Human Club, a project I get to work on with one of my best friends. And it's really about bringing, you know, what is the solution to humanity and bringing the human at the center of the solution for the future. 


So it's like, how can I be a better human me to me? Like, what do I need for myself right now to show up more fully? And what impact am I leaving behind in every room that I'm stepping into? So, and allowing yourselves again to see each other as part of the same team. 


Like we tend to forget this. Like we are all in this together. You know, the person at the grocery store in front of you that you do not know, guess what? They're on your team and you are on their team whether you like it or not. 


So you might as well try and figure out how can we co-create and collaborate with much more ease? Will we always all get along? No. Will we always all agree? No. And that's part of the game. That's part of the situations and system that we have to learn to be a part of. 


And so it's allowing ourselves to say, okay, wait a minute. What is within my scope? What is within my realm of responsibilities that I need to take right now? What are the actions and decisions that I need to take in this moment that are more proactive for how I am showing up and for the collective? 


Yeah, incredible, Dunia. I think it's a really good way to summarize also what we've been talking about, right? Is, you know, co-creating, collectively co-creating a better environment for all of us within a healthcare system as well, so that we can all live better, but also so that we can create a better system. 


Right. And it does involve all of us. Thank you so much for sharing all of your insights, Dunya. A lot of positivity here. And I think well-being, it's all about well-being, all about heart, and reminding us to bring the heart back into our lives. 


I really appreciate this discussion today, Dania. I'm sure it's going to help a lot of people. Thank you so much for having me, Zina, and the work that you're doing by bringing this podcast and this platform together. 


It's amazing, you know, really providing so much value to so many around. So grateful for you and your work, truly. Thank you, Dania. It's a partnership here. We're co-creating. Always. Always. Thank you, Dania. 


Take care. Have a beautiful day. Bye, everyone.